You can be an expert simply by calling yourself one. You can put out videos and gather a following of dedicated defenders even though the way you go about your business may be a bit on the disingenuous side.
Normally, I would laugh things off and go on my way. But a couple of days ago I was introduced to videos put out by "The Pro Shot Shooting System" and besides being a bit dumbfounded by the information presented there, I was taken aback by the outright vicious attacks that were made by the author. He has accused people he has never met of being liars and insinuated that these same people were ignorant of the very actions they have dedicated hundereds if not thousands of hours of their lives, to make a livelihood for themselves and their families. To top it off, he was introducing concepts to the game of basketball that I could not sit back and let go unanswered. Below, I take on the Pro Shot Shooting System (herein to be known as Pro Shot) and try to make clear to parents, coaches and players, just what exactly it is and why it is bad for you, your children and most of all, the game of basketball.
What Pro Shot is billed as, is a "revolution" in the way people shoot a basketball. Of course the author and defenders of this revolution, will point to people like me and say we are old school or an old dog that refuses to learn a new trick. They will have to drag us along kicking and screaming, but the new day has arrived. They will stand arrogantly and point to those of us that disagree as close minded and against innovation. Now for the record, I have been coaching basketball for over thirty years, mostly on the high school and college level, and in that time I have changed philosophically from a slow down half court ball control coach, to a run, shoot and pressure full court type coach so I would say I have been more than open to change. I have seen fads come and go and have seen brilliant strategies and systems of play withstand the test of time. I would say I can tell the real deal when I see it. Conversely, I can tell a fad and or a mistake when I see it as well. Pro Shot is no innovation. It is poorly thought out, disingenuously presented and full of so many holes in its philosophy, you can play all the PGA majors on it.
The Pro Shot system is based on one concept and one concept only. Players are never squared to the basket and therefore all players were LIED to when they were taught to be squared. In light of that fact, pro shot developed a "new" way to shoot a ball. The basics of the system are based on four concepts. Hop, Turn, Dip and Sway. There are one or two others, but these four are the basic ideas behind the revolution. Let me first try and explain each and then I will dive into the concepts and their presentation.
Hop-The premise on the hop is that every player should catch the ball on a hop. This hop allows the player to land with both feet simultaneously thereby allowing said player to choose either foot as their pivot foot. Interesting idea of course, but far from innovative.
Turn-Next comes the turn. Being that no player is ever square to the basket when they shoot and if they are they are rarely successful, the turn is really one of the two pillars of the system. In essence the turn is done on the floor and not, say, in the air. What the turn does is point the shooters feet at basically 10 oclock or 1030 since when most shooters finish their shots they are pointing in that direction anyway. Why not start them there? By doing this, the players right foot or lead foot and their lead shoulder will be perfectly aligned with the basket.
Dip-Pro Shot contends that every shooter dips the ball before they shoot instead of shooting it where it is caught. The premise, as it is with the hop and the turn, is that most players don't realize they are dipping the ball, but they ALWAYS are. Therefore, one of the staples of the system is the dip. Combined with the hop and the turn, players will get their shots off much quicker by doing these manuevers-yes even taking the time to dip the ball- and at the same time, will vastly improve their sucess rate.
Sway-or as the author says, sweep and sway. Sway is defined as the shooters feet coming out in front of their shoulders on the release creating power and arc on the shoot and allowing the players range to increase greatly. The claim on the sway is that it loosens the tension in the shooters shoulders allowing a much more free and easy shot and movement. What it will also do is keep shots from missing short. The author makes and very often repeats the claim that 90% of all shots miss short. The sway keeps that from happening.
At first glance, some of these ideas are not so out of whack. I'm not even sure I disagreed with some of the concepts. However the more I watched, the worse I began to feel about Pro Shot. Let's first start with the hop.
The hop is basically a jump stop or maybe a bunny hop if you will. As I said above, not all that revolutionary. Nor is the concept of landing on both feet and leaving open the opportunity to choose either foot as the pivot foot. Personally, as a teacher of players for over three decades, I have gone a few ways on this, but am always drawn back. I think the most fundamental way to teach the pivot foot concept, is to give players a clear cut option. That option is the weak-hand foot. Now since I try to never speak in the negative when teaching, I break it down this way. A right handed shooter, is a right footed shooter. A left handed shooter, is a left footed shooter. What that means is-and this is extremely important for all that is to follow in dissecting Pro Shot-a right handed shooter would be best served by using his left foot as his pivot foot almost exclusively. I am quite sure there are some that will disagree with me and that is their perrogative. However, I do think for most coaches who drill and coach fundamentals, there will be almost unanimous consent on this idea. Besides being a powerful foundation, it is clear and concise. Players know what to do, how to react, and have clear instruction laid out for them. Plus and this is most important, there is less margin for error when the players knows exactly what to do. The Innovator of the revolution calls the pivot foot an anchor. I call it stability. I hope to go further in depth on this concept later on.
In general, I am in favor of the jump stop when used intelligently and in certain situations. Coach John Chaney once told me to try and stay away from shooting jumpers off the jump stop because the odds are that the player will go either left or right in the air, usually not straight and he would therefore be shooting at a moving target. I am not sure I believe that concept applies to the bunny hop, but I do understand his point. While the "hop" the innovator is referring to is at times more of a bunny hop, it does become a bit of an issue with young players at an early age and I have seen this hop have a derogatory effect on young shooters. As players grow and get older, some are very comfortable with a bunny hop and that has its place to be sure although it's not something I would rely on. However, the author points out that MOST if NOT ALL guards in the NBA are hop shooters. Now of course to illustrate this point, he only uses shots that come off the hop...ummm...well he thought he did. In his Kyrie Irving shooting form video, the author goes to great lengths to point out that Irving is a hop shooter. That is until roughly the 3:52 mark where the next two shots he puts up are off the 1-2 step. Now, that just caused me to laugh as did earlier in the video when he talked about pulling the 3 off the dribble and he showed a clip of Step Curry doing exactly that...except he did it off the 1-2 step. Ooopppsss. I think what was most disappointing in that video was the author leads the viewer to believe that Irving was using the Pro Shot System when nothing could be further from the truth. In reality, Irving is a right footed shooter and regardless of how he shoots-whether off the hop or the 1-2 step-Irving is always shooting with his right foot forward in the video because he is a right handed shooter. Of all the things in Pro Shot that are misleading, this is the worst and here is why.
What Pro shot claims is that a player is never square to the basket so any and all coaches who teach players to be square to the basket are perpetuating a lie. He goes to great lengths to be sure the viewer knows coaches are LIARS. He inserts clips of Jim Carrey and others to illustrate and leave no doubt, that anyone who teaches or claims to use this concept as a shooter is an outright liar (ie Kevin Love and Steph Curry who evidently are not only liars but too ignorant or stupid to realzie they are). I am sure he could have found a way to disagree with the concept without calling people names or degrading anyone who disagrees with him. I suppose in a revolution you must demonize the enemy to gain a groundswell of support. However, in this case Pro Shot is misguided and wrong.
The essence of Pro Shot is to take the final result of shooters and develop a system that piggybacks on the very concepts it works hard to destroy. The bottom line is this. Yes, make no mistake about it, players are sqaure to the basket, but most any coach who teaches to be square to the basket, will be demanding in a shooting foot forward concept. That player, even with his right or left foot extended, is still very much square to the basket. Whether that coach teaches it off the hop or the 1-2 step, any coach who understands balance and shooting, will demand right foot forward. I personally try to teach it as a heel to toe relationship. The heel of my right foot (being a right footed shooter) should be just above parralel to the toes of my left foot or to be more accurate the side of my left foot, should fit right into the groove of my right if I bring them together. Some of course will have other ways to teach lead foot forward, but that is how I do it and to date, my players have been pretty successful. As for width of the feet, shoulder length is the desired ideal but that varies and changes depending on the player. Personally, I like feet a little wider than that, but that is my own quirk and I don't believe I have a right to suggest that is truth from on high. That is what works for me and I think helps players, especially young ones, succeed.
Pro Shot actually ignores totally, right foot forward. What he does instead is claim that players turn and therefore are never square. No, they don't turn per se, but right foot forward-or shooting foot forward-naturally leans the body in such a way that yes the player is leading with his right shoulder BECAUSE HE IS A RIGHT FOOTED SHOOTER. So those who want to claim that players turn, may do so I suppose, but they do so while ignoring the fact that the shooter has a solid base, is square to the basket and has great balance. Pro Shot in essence takes the end result of a squared up, "anchored" balanced shooter and builds a system off of it without ever acknowledging or recognizing that it is the very thing he disparages, that leads the player to that end result. It is akin to taking a Michealangelo painting and after it is done, paint over the bottom right hand corner and claim it was THAT bottom cornered paint job that was the reason the painting was so good. No it was so good because the artist who painted it, did all the heavy lifting, used solid fundamentals and constant repetition in order for you to come along and falsely claim it was your concept and your paint job that made the painting what it was. Same thing here. Whether the shooter is a 1-2 shooter or a hop shooter, the innovator claims that it is the turn that makes the shooter successful. No, it is the squared up, right foot forward concept that makes the shooter successful. All you have to do is stand in front of a mirror, spread your feet and push your lead foot forward just a little. Are you going to claim you are not squared? That is in and of itself ridiculous.
So what? What is so wrong with the Pro Shot system anyway?
For starters, we can look at the 10:30/10:00 stance that is a foundation of the system. The questions that immediately came to mind for me and I am sure others were plenty. What happens to my feet when I am in the left corner? Are they facing the baseline? Does that seem logical or balanced? What about off the screen? Do I hop and thereby allow my defender to easily step through? Does this system work in anything other than ideal uncontested circumstances? By eliminating the jab step since there is no need for it, what happens if I get jammed?
I can't go through all of them, but suffice it to say, I and others have plenty more. Do shooters end up with their feet out in front of them after they release the ball? I think if you look at most of them, they, at some point after the release, probably do. BUT THAT IS THE RESULT OF EVERYTHING THAT CAME BEFORE IT, not because they used an exagerated method to get there. To prove his point on the dip for instance, the innovator uses video of Steph Curry dipping the ball as if he was an endorser and user of the shooting system. A couple of things on that. One-most of the time, he is catching the ball in his shooting pocket because he gets the pass from an NBA player passing it to him and therefore what seems like a dip is actually Steph catching it in rythm, NOT CREATING THE RYTHM WITH A DIP. Second, when Curry has time to shoot like most any good shooter, they will naturally bring the ball back to their shooting pocket. I would rather see catch and shoot, but shooters are shooters because they know how to shoot. Dip or no dip. The claim is not only misleading but intellectually dishonest. On that note I did want to address the videos of the three players demonstrating the concepts being taught. I found it laughable that when asked to show the viewer the 1-2 step, none of these awesome shooters made a shot. But as soon as the hop, turn, dip and sway were introduced, alas everyone was Steph Curry. It is as if anyone who uses the 1-2 step to shoot a ball will never make a shot. It is amazing how players have existed or made any shots before the advent of the Pro Shot System.
One thing on sway. The innovator claims that 90% of all shots that don't sway-seemingly because of the 1-2 step-fall short. Of course he offers no evidence to support his claim other than a video of a girl with bad shooting form missing a shot short-off the 1-2 step of course. I challenge Pro Shot to cite these statistics since he never offers any except to claim the 90% number over and over again. What I have learned in my life is that just because someone says it is so, does not make it so. Can someone, anyone, please cite the 90% statistic for me with evidence to back that up? Where is the source that enables him to make and constantly repeat that claim? I ask that because in my experience, that statistic is implausable. Please cite for edification. Thank you.
A point on the turn itself. When talking about teaching kids, I think this is a very dangerous issue. As it is now, players have major issues, even in the league, with being too closed on the release. Now we are going to teach that as a concept? When taken in conjunction with the hop, the room for error here is great. Play it forward at game speed. Say what you will about the hop, but it is far less stable than the plant foot/shooting foot concept otherwise known as 1-2. What the plant foot does is force the player to gather himself and if taught correctly, the player will be in a shooting position on the plant because he is playing low. This is where Coach Chaney's advice is actually very astute. It is true that one may be able to gather himself on the hop but when taken at full speed with the turn concept, the opportunity to "overturn" and be off balance and or closed is far greater and has added an element-hop/turn-into the game for young players that is far too unstable and leaves the player open to error at a much higher rate. All you need is one tweak, and the player is off whereas the plant foot does indeed anchor and stabilize the player before putting in motion the shooting foot.
A point on the turn itself. When talking about teaching kids, I think this is a very dangerous issue. As it is now, players have major issues, even in the league, with being too closed on the release. Now we are going to teach that as a concept? When taken in conjunction with the hop, the room for error here is great. Play it forward at game speed. Say what you will about the hop, but it is far less stable than the plant foot/shooting foot concept otherwise known as 1-2. What the plant foot does is force the player to gather himself and if taught correctly, the player will be in a shooting position on the plant because he is playing low. This is where Coach Chaney's advice is actually very astute. It is true that one may be able to gather himself on the hop but when taken at full speed with the turn concept, the opportunity to "overturn" and be off balance and or closed is far greater and has added an element-hop/turn-into the game for young players that is far too unstable and leaves the player open to error at a much higher rate. All you need is one tweak, and the player is off whereas the plant foot does indeed anchor and stabilize the player before putting in motion the shooting foot.
I could go on forever, but at some point I have to bring this to a close. I did want to address one last thing. Pro Shot makes the claim that shots are too slow when shooters have to bend their knees to shoot. I would agree in principle with that concept. However, what Pro Shot never takes into account, is that shooters who can really shoot, NEVER CATCH HIGH. Most players who understand shooting are already bent ready to receive the pass and before it reaches their hands are stepping in to shoot. If you play high, yes, bending your knees will take longer. However if you catch and play low like every player should, you are already shooting the basketball on the catch, without rushing it, sacrificing your mechanics and or balance, and you surely have ten toes to the rim as much as possible. Once the player shoots the shot, his feet just may sway or turn to 10:00, but again that is because of everything that led to that point, not because he made it a point to end up that way.
Lastly, Coaches, please think things through before using such a flawed and disingenuous system to teach your players. Any coach worth his or her salt, knows that the game slippage on something like this would be enormous. Forget the fact that the innovator disparages the jab step and claims there is no longer a need for it in Pro Shot. Why would you take that away from a player? Do youself a favor and watch players shoot. Almost all of them will have their foundation in the 1-2 step. The 1-2 step can play off screens, play off jabs, off the dribble and most importantly, does not need a utopian set of circumstances to use it successfully. I am more than open to having further discourse on this issue and quite honestly, I may need to do another post since I have barely scratched the surface when it comes to all that is misguided in this system. Nevertheless, feel free to engage me and discuss or debate what is written here. Parents and coaches, if you would like your players to become good shooters, but more importantly good fundamental basketball players, keep them far away from "The Pro Shot Shooting System." To all those of you who will claim that it has had great success to date, I refer you to Reggie Miller and ask "Would you teach your child to shoot that way?" My point being, with repetition, all things are possible. However, if you are after consistency and long term success, do yourself a favor and stay away from Pro Shot.
I have hosted some Pro Shot camps and i would have to disagree. Coach Hoover isn't claiming to have invented anything, merely sharing what he has learned thru observation. That's why he shows videos of everything he talks about. If you disagree with what he's saying, where's your evidence? Where's your video proof that he's wrong? All you’re doing is trying to dispute someone else’s effort with words, or in your own words "I suppose in a revolution you must demonize the enemy to gain a groundswell of support."
ReplyDeleteYou can see how much time and energy has gone in to the research behind Pro Shot. Pro Shot does not take a rigid line about any of their concepts. Coach Hoover readily admits that there are unconventional shooters that have success, but the majority of what's considered to be great shooters have most or all of these concepts in common. All Coach Hoover did was observe and report; if you could see past your own bias, there is a video on the site that explains why players were initially told to square up with both feet-the two hand set shot. He's not saying that players were purposely lied to-he's merely making a point of emphasis that the concept is outdated, and that a lot of people are regurgitating outdated concepts without realizing it. You shouldn't take it personal. You try to make it seem that his videos are mean spirited attacks when in fact they are clearly humorous attempts at getting the message across. There are some players who think they are doing one thing but clearly WITH VIDEO EVIDENCE THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
You're telling people to stay away without even talking to Coach to see what he's about. YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE BESIDES YOUR PERSONAL OPINION. I DARE YOU TO PUT IN THE TIME AND COME UP WITH EVIDENCE FOR ALL TO SEE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT AND PRO SHOT IS WRONG. That's the thing about Pro Shot, they remain open minded and will listen to anyone, even if they don't agree. Coach Hoover has a video showcasing Stephen Curry and he talks about how Curry's release is slightly different and talks about how repetition can overcome SOME bad habits or idiosyncrasies in a players shot. See how he can admit nothing is absolute? ALSO, WHY ISN'T HE CHARGING ANY MONEY FOR ANY OF THIS INFO? BECAUSE HE WANTS TO TEACH AND HE LOVES THE GAME. They make money from camps, but you don't have to host one if you don't want and the info is still there for free. No registration, subscription or anything required. What are you offering for free Coach? Do you have a system you'd like to teach? Would you like to show us all the specific research you've done on shooting? I believe in these guys. I found them because my son was struggling with his shot. I read their core concepts and was open minded. My son had been a very good shooter as a youth, but made some changes in his shot and by 8th grade he was struggling. I coach at the High School level but never knew much about shooting except the same old concepts, "square your feet, etc.”
Pro Shot gave him the tools he needed, He improved, and made the JV squad at his school and was called up to varsity in the playoffs for his ball handling and 3 point shooting. I kept trying to make him square up, jump straight up and down on his shot, and all the other things that had been passed down to me. It didn't work and funny enough after he worked with Pro Shot, I noticed on his older videos that he had originally shot that way. His exposure to coaching concepts that are outdated almost cost him, and it was all the coaches he had been exposed to AND myself. His younger brother is a lights out shooter and he's only grown up knowing pro shot. I host a camp for my teams every year and the Pro Shot guys are selfless hard workers who care about what they do. So again don't just use words, show me and everyone else why your way is better. Show how much time and effort you put in to helping others and let's see if your research is a deep as Pro Shot.
See my post for today
Deleteyou are so right lakersin4 well said.
Deletelakersin4 Is so correct and hey cp.This article is false it makes me gag.
DeleteI run an aau basketball organization and my vice president got in touch with Coach Hoover and we met this past March on his way through to discuss running a camp. He NEVER SAID HE WAS AN EXPECT NOR HAS HE EVER SAID THAT PEOPLE LIE. After speaking with him my vice president and I were impressed and decided to run a clinic. Just last month (November) we hosted our first shooting and scoring camp. We had 78 kids come. We have had a local high school who heard of him, and sent a few of his players to the camp. EVERYONE that came enjoyed the camp and would come back. All the parents were impressed with what he taught their children. We had one that were doubters before the first day, but Coach Hoover spoke with them, and after the first day of camp, they went up and appoglized to him and THEY BECAME BELIEVERS.
ReplyDeleteIf his way is so wrong according to you, why does he have major endorsements from two HOF (HALL OF FAME) COACHES in Rick Pitno, and Bob Hurley??? Why does he also have endorsements from Charlie Turner Thorne (Az State Coach) and former George Washington and now Florida Atlantic University. That's some big name endorsements. Why do NBA players like Kevin Durante, Dwayne Wade, Kobe Bryant and Jermey Lin who just worked with coach Hoover. Hell, the greatest player in the game Michael Jordan shot this way and this was even before Coach Hoover started his camps.
Coach Hoover watches A TON NO A SHIT LOAD OF VIDEO and comments on what trends he notices on shooting. He does this 365 days a year and runs over 600+ camps A YEAR!!! What is your expertise on this??? I've been coaching for over 20 years and I'm a student of the game, always willing to learn and improve myself as a coach. I also have A LOT of high school coaching connections, along with connections at the college ranks.
You're comments about Coach Hoover are slanderous as well as defamation of charachter. He has every right to sue you and Coach Hoover I suggest that you do.
I am a believer in what Coach Hoover teaches and knows that the game has changed and coaches need to change with it. If not, you'll always be behind the times. NOT TO WORRY COACH HOOVER I HAVE YOUR BACK AND YOU HAVE MY SUPPORT
See my post for today but I will address a couple points-first-I have been to plenty camps with plenty people who paid plenty of money and would go back even though what was taught was elementary or sometimes nonsense. The Washington redskins still sell out and people keep coming back so attendance evidently means nothing.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, your Jordan post is exactly why I wrote what I wrote. Ya know coach, some people can watch film and it would be akin the watching the hibernation habits of pelicans in 1565 Rome...just cause one watches film,doesn't mean he knows what he sees. I'm not making that comment about coach Hoover or anyone else per se I'm just making the point that one has to know, before they know. People that know what I mean by that will understand. One last point. I don't know nor really care who coach Hoover claims he worked with nor does it matter to me. Those players we the long before coach hoovers ascension into their lives and my guess is they will remain in basketball loooong after he's gone. As I said in my post I stand by my assessment and anyone including KD and Jeremy Lin are more than welcome to discuss the finer points of this with me.
ReplyDeleteif you're such an expect as you claim to be why aren't you running shooting camps and running over 600 camps A YEAR??? If he's wrong by what he's teaching why does he have the endorsements that he has??? YOUR JEALOUS BECAUSE OF WHAT HE'S ACCOMPLISHED. Your a JA who hasn't proven anything but making a fool of yourself. WHAT'S YOUR BASKETBALL BACKROUND???
ReplyDeleteReally CP? That's all you've got? Name calling? Lets be clear here-I have never claimed to be an expert only that I know enough to know who is not one. Second, if I am not mistaken it was coach Hoover who ridiculed and continues to disparage
ReplyDeleteExperts not me. Third, I addressed your comment in my post today and above-all you have to do is read. It can't be that hard. Lastly, why not rely on your own expertise and aau resume and address the questions and issues I posed above and in my posts instead of name calling and acting the fool.
ReplyDeleteI'm hardly jealous and as I mentioned above, I don't have any need or desire to run any camps nor do I put any stock in numbers for the reasons I stated above. So please don't try to intimidate me with pedigree. What would be impressive, would be if you actually could show me where that 90% of all shots fall short statistic comes from, or why coach Hoover needs to manipulate video to make it seem like Ray Allen for instance agrees with his philosophy instead of the exact opposite. Endorsements mean nothing to me-what means something is letting ones work stand on its own instead of manufacturing things that just aren't there
ReplyDeleteCoach Hoover IS NOT manipulating video but saying look at the way he's shooting they're using the sweep and sway along with SCurry, Kobe, D Wade Kevin Durrant etc are the best shooters in the world and this is what they're doing when they shoot and this is why they're successful. You mentioned some people can watch film and it would be akin the watching the hibernation habits of pelicans in 1565 Rome. so what does that have to do with anything of what we're talking about???
DeleteWhat he's saying that the old way of squaring to the basket is what they taught 30 years ago, times change and the game changes and evolves. Look at basketball in the late 70's and early 80's to the late 1990's through today it's changed, and it's not for the better. To much glitz and glamor, and bad habits can be learned by kids today (I.E. Iverson talking about practice) but as a coach we have to change with the times and ACCEPT CHANGE!!!
You slandered this man's reputation with out watching and learning anything. I sure hope you don't coach kids b/c if you do you shouldn't be. Endorsements mean A LOT esp when it's people that are well known coaches and agree with what's being taught because it's the right thing.
As I said I hope you're not a coach b/c I would NEVER LET YOU COACH MY KIDS
Cp-I know this must be hard for you but read what I wrote-it addressed all your repetitive claims. As for your argument about basketball getting worse I couldn't agree more. AAU needs to step to the front of that line and I don't even think that's up for debate. Isn't it interesting that you complain how squaring up in so 30 years ago and how it needs to change then you point to how much worse basketball has become...hmm..do you ever even read your own nonsense? Additionally
DeleteI slandered no ones reputation...all I did was point out the simple glaring inconsistencies and misguided ideas that are obvious to anyone who understands
DeleteFundamental basketball. Check in tomorrow where I will use coach hoovers own videos to illustrate his own contradictions.
DeleteAll one has to do is to watch the ray Allen video pro shot posted and the entire one that ray posted as I laid out last night and you can see the obvious manipulation that was used to make it look like Ray agrees in principle when it's obvious he believes exactly the opposite-if you can't see it cp you are in denial, nothing more, nothing less and THAT cp is what it means to be watching the flight patterns of pelicans, you can see it but you have no clue what you're looking at. Here endeth the lesson
ReplyDeleteray allen uses the sweep and sway when he shoots and lands forward with his feet, he's one of the best shooters in the NBA today. I watched the video as he broke down Kobe's jump shot and HE NEVER CONTRADICTED HIMSELF NOT HAVE ANY INCONSISTENCIES OR MISGUIDED INFO. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS MISGUIDED. I understand the game, and have many coaching contacts here in the state and they all agree that you did slander his reputation. As for AAU basketball, each organization is different, and with my organization, we teach fundamentals, sportsmanship comrade and helping players improve their game.
ReplyDeleteyou did slander him and I don't blame him for being upset. YOU DON'T GET IT. WHAT AGE GROUP ARE YOU COACHING AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN COACHING??
Cp-if coach Hoover is upset, that was not my intent, but I must add that I am upset as well when I see things like this. All coach Hoover has to do is contact me as I stated above and I would be more than glad to discuss these issues with him. Again, I have written above about my coaching history but I will repeat it again. I have coached basketball for the past 33 years from biddy level to high school to college both at the division 1 level and division 3. I make no claims about my expertise as I have said before and don't claim to be anything that I am not. I do teach privately with professional, college and youth players so from the teaching standpoint, I think I've had that covered. My point on aau basketball was simply that the destruction of team play and fundamentals can be traced back to the advent of the explosion of aau on the scene. Guys looking to get theirs, coaches piggybacking on kids and shoe companies lining up to cozy up to some extremely shady characters. As basketball coaches we only have ourselves to blame. We putting winning ahead of people building and we have seen what it has done to our game and we should be embarrassed. My bigger issue with aau is while the team is away for a three day tournament maybe playing twice a day, that player could have spent that weekend in the gym working on his game instead of some hotel room playing play station. As for slander, I would be very interested in what slander I have been guilty of. Slander of course would be an untruth. Nothing I have said is an untruth. I have offered my opinion on what I believe is a dangerous and flawed system that sadly takes advantage of an unknowing public. Now if coach Hoover can get away with that so be it, but at the same time, I do believe it is in the best interests of the game to expose those who are running game on the game or the public. It is my opinion that coach Hoover, is doing a great disservice to the public and all I am trying to do is educate those who are interested as to what the issues are and how this system is not in their best interest. Quite honestly, people are free to ignore me and every other coach who understands what is going on here, and most will. I can't do anything about that. But as for the video issue, check back in a few hours-I will be posting and comparing his video information and how he uses certai clips to make a point while not realizing that the very point he is trying t make is being contradicted by a subsequent video in his series. I hope that answers your questions somewhat. Now maybe you can answer mine. Where did coach Hoover get that 90% of shots fall short statistic? Thanks for your help on that.
ReplyDeleteHe never said that they are falling short. It is his belief as I am speaking with him now) that land straight up and down. They lack extension and they lack the dip
ReplyDeleteBy the way have you read his ebook??? Have you gone through everything??? that he teaches AND HE GIVES IT AWAY FOR FREE
Cp-He made a statistical claim about 90% of all shots-if it is up and down so be it I stand corrected. Now, can you post the statistical evidence of that please? I am eager to see it. And you can thank him in advance for it from me. I have watched his FREE videos and if you look at my post today, you will see that I used your advice and studied film. His film. Now you can see for yourself the points I am making in video. Sorry that I cant link them. I'm a bit of a computer moron. But you can copy and paste and see exactly what I am talking about and by the way, each and every video posted, I can show you the same things as I do above. I am not making this up, you can see it and judge for yourself.
DeleteLooking forward to those stats. I'm very interested to see where and what games they were gathered from. Feel free to read the posts above and I would say that you would be very interested in the new one from this morning. It will clarify my points for you...if you are as interested in that as you claim.
Thanks for those statistics. I will study them as soon as you send them and I can assure you, I will print a retraction if it is warranted.
CP-No, I have not read the ebook, I have only watched the video and read the website. I'd be more than happy to read it all. If you'd like to send it to me you can send it to the email on this site. Thank you in advance.
DeleteSo were are all the comments some 2 years later. Mr. Kats from reading this blog and your comments it seems that you have more a problem with Paul himself. I was introduced to Proshot in July 2013 and like most was very skeptical. I looked further into the techniques and concepts that Paul uses and realized that the way coaches teach shooting is not the way players actually shoot. I decided to learn the system and teach my son who at the time was going into 8th grade. he already had a descent jumpshot but I knew if he was going to play at the college level he needed to improve it drastically. I really watched how the best shooters were shooting and saw that the system made sense. I taught my son to use it and it drastically helped his jumpshot. The big thing about the system is that it needs to feel right and comfortable for the player, if it doesnt you need to change and fix it. I have seen alot of players as a coach at various levels and its funny that i see alot of them using the TURN-DIP-HOP and Sweep/Sway- ,most kids dont even realize they do this. I think the reason for this is that the game has changed and evolved over the past 40 years from players being stronger-faster bigger to the implementation of the 3pts line. players need to figure out a way to adjust and adapt to the changes of the game and I feel that the Turn-Dip-Hop and Sweep/Sway is a part of that change. Just my 2 cents.
ReplyDeletePS -my son is currently a 6'8 soph in HS and has been using most of the techniques and concepts that Paul has been teaching for over 2 years. He feels comfortable using the Turn-Dip-Hop and Sweep/sway. It has helped his jumpshot tremendously. This may not be for everyone but for those who do use it they all seem to like it and it has helped them.
Scott Dadika
Excel Basketball
Scott,
ReplyDeleteSo here is what we do know. We know no one in the league ever got there by using this system. We also know your 6'8 son is 6'8 and therefore will play somewhere simply bc of that. If you cant find someone to take him, call me I will find more than you can handle. Lastly we know that teaching kids to try to be like .0000001 percent of the population is nonsense. Fact is, if you have seen the rest of my posts, you should realize that no one has answered any of my questions bc they can't. Paul Hoover is well aware of me and won't answer my questions because he can't. I suggest strongly that your son learn how to defend-in stance-bc he will need balance--something Hoover argues strongly against. As an aside my son is 6'4 and will never be mistaken for quick. He has no turn, sway dip or any of that nonsense. He is a 1-2 step shooter and shoots from his catch radius. And his average release is .04. I suggest if your son wants to play on the higesht levels, he learns from coaches who have actually had to teach teams not some guy who sells you an ebook.
As for teh changes you mention, I can't for teh life of me figure out how shooting SLOWER adapts to the quickness of the game but I have sadly learned when it comes to Hoover's army of "skill coaches" facts dont really seem to play into it. And make no mistake, the shoot as he teaches it is slower. Anyone who actually understands shooting knows this. But I have also learned when it comes to intelligent debate, don't expect any from pro shot shooting advocates.
Actually Karl Anthony Towns trained with pro shot when he was in 7th grade so.... and they trained with Eric Gordon too.
DeleteI know Eric Gordon's shooting coach, and it wasn't Pro Shot. It's Dick Baumgartner in Indiana, one of the best shooting coaches in the country. Dick played at IU back in the day, as did Gordon. Pro Shot may have trained Eric for a day, but Dick worked with him for years. And I wouldn't exactly cite KAT as an exemplar for shooting. LOL.
DeleteReading the from the comments above, I can't believe i'm the only one here who completely agrees with you. Hoover keeps pointing out that great players like curry turn. They do turn, but in the air! It's a natural motion for 1 handed shooters. Most of their shots start squared. If they want evidence, show them a clip where curry shoots freethrows, he never turns when shooting a freethrow
ReplyDeleteLook at his shoulders, they are turned I promise you.
DeleteYes, most turn in the air. That is one of the key points Hoover makes. It helps with power and alignment.
DeleteSince being introduced to the pro shot system, I've been watching intently great shooters. Hoover is correct in his observations. Most, not all great shooters
ReplyDeleteDip, turn and sway forward. Bird, Pistol Pete, West they all did it. But it just has never been taught that way. It's my belief that the only time a shooter stays square is when shooting free throws, and then one foot usually is forward. I've even seen Curry in a video stating to square to the basket and never dips. But he does it almost every time. He has an extreme turn and dip. But any ball player needs room to flow with the game and use instinct and improvisation to make shots, and sometimes great scorers don't use perfect form. But this pro shot system is dead on the money as far as its assessment about what makes a great shooter. And there is a difference between a great scorer and shooter. Hovers teachings aren't revolutionary, because that's how all great shooters shoot since way back. He's just one of the first people I've seen explain it the way he does and that it goes against conventional teaching. Very eye opening!!
Where has Paul Hoover gone? Company not even his no more? Anyone know what has happened?
ReplyDeletemy email is andras22@gmail.com - please let me know if you find that out!
DeleteHis father died and he is with his mother
DeleteCoach Hoover doesn't claim coaches are lying, he says they just teach what they were taught. Shooters don't square either, if one of their shoulders is leading, that means they are turned. Coach also says the hop is usually better BUT he says you also need to learn the 1-2 and that it's better in some situations. Coach Hoover watches the best shooters and makes videos on what they do. He is correct. Sadly, you are not.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.shawanoleader.com/articles/2015/10/20/basketball-coach-charged-child-sex-crime
ReplyDeletePaul Hoover as been fired by Pro Shot
How can Coach Hoover be fired as he is Pro Shot? This is his company that he founded.
Deletehttp://www.shawanoleader.com/articles/2015/10/20/basketball-coach-charged-child-sex-crime
ReplyDeletePaul Hoover as been fired by Pro Shot
Why was he fired? Only thing I heard was that his father died.
DeleteHow can he be fired from a company he started?
DeleteCoach, enjoyed your comments about the pro shot. I have coached collegiate and high school for 40 years and now travel for the NBA in Asia teaching the game and shooting. Would be interested to know what you tell your players to look at when shooting and when to pick up the target? Do you agree with the index finger being in the middle of the ball and watching the flight of the ball like pro shot?
ReplyDeleteJames-have not checked this fir awhile but evidently the minions are out in force. I do believe both fingers middle and index should be the last two on the ball. Old theory I subscribe to but I am not alone. Would be interested in your work.
DeleteI must say I was skeptical at first having been to several elite camps with my older daughter who graduated back in 2014, but after watching allot of film and a nudge from our high school coach, who has been coaching for many years with great success (10 straight district championships, 5 regional appearances, 3 trips to the final four and one semi final appearance in the past 11 years as varsity coach) and seeing his frustration with how poor shooting could kill a game or season, I decided to send my two younger daughters to this camp. My older daughter who was already a good shooter and graduated before we learned pro shot was more of a square up shooter, though some of the techniques were similar to her shooting style. My 2nd daughter just came off of her second pro shot shooting camp this summer and I am a believer more than ever now. This last season after attending her first Pro Shot camp and us working on this system, she improved her 3pt shooting percentage in games this season to 40%. Yes 40% for a high school sophomore girl on varsity. That made a believer out of me. We shoot extra but not more than I did before the camp or with my older daughter. I kept tallies on both my kids shooting percentage at practices throughout the off season and I have witnessed her made shots % steadily rise in practice. Now some could say this may be to just more practice but I did this with my older daughter as well making make % in practices when she was playing and never saw the growth in shooting % like I have with Pro Shot and we went to some elite camps for shooting and Guard play from 2012-14. I am a believer that actions speak louder than words and many of the techniques they discuss eliminate allot of small things that can make a shot go off target. One example that I liked was the off hand effecting the flight of the ball and the technique in pro shot eliminating allot of that issue. Do the research for yourself, do a base line with your kids shooting before and after pro shot with no extra shooting than they did before Pro Shot and compare, that is what I did and I for one have become a believer of the Pro Shot shooting system. Every kid that went to the camp on our team saw more success in better shooting % this past season. I know some can say they grew more and have another year under their belt and all, so do your own investigation and see what you come up with. It has made a believer out of me.
ReplyDeleteI would also have to disagree, both you and coach hoover make excellent points on paper, but results dont lie. After transitioning to pro shot mechanics, i saw immediate results in my shooting (which was my weakness and is now my strength). Sorry but maybe you should try out the program before you make judgements.
ReplyDeleteNah, I'm good thanks
DeleteWhy would he do that he actually might improve his shot!!! I know i did and its helped my son and hundreds of players i have taught
DeleteThe coach of our team responded to this issue as follows:
ReplyDeletePrimary players will shoot straight if they do this- Alignment Before and after the shot (This is the turn, the follow through (finger) being straight, the offhand being close, not pulled, pointed at the rim. Hip, elbow pointed towards rim, body staying on a straight line with the rim throughout the shot, not leaning or jumping to the side, shooting through the eye)
Secondary Players will have better arch and distance control if they do this - Rhythm (This is the dip, the sweep and sway, the hop, and the one motion shot action, the eyes, and full extension. And it is perfecting the timing of these things so that the ball is being released just before the apex of the jump)
*I think there are some finer points to argue here about catching the ball off a pass in dipping position, how to pivot and turn in different situations, how many players because they lack the strength should do one motion shot...etc...that different athleticism may not lead to sameness across all shooting styles.
**I also don't begrudge the pro shot guy his marketing methods. Overall, it does appear that he has got thousands of players and coaches to focus on shooting, do some kind of consistent methodology that seems to work for many, etc... What he is doing in terms of his promotional methods takes hours and hours to do and enormous dedication and commitment. Yes, I noticed some inconsistency in video clips used etc...but that can be more of an issue in terms of access to all video, editing time, etc...than a disproval of his methods or observations. People quote unverifiable statistics all the time so I take his as a ball park of what he has observed (say on missed shots to left and right) and give it some credibility over other anecdotal comments.
(I don't want to disparage other long time coaches openess to learn and methods but I have seen a lot of outside the box thinking in business, technology, and sometimes, people with creative minds outside of industries really do see things differently and in a better way.)
We are comparing these conflicting/not-so-conflicting ideas and testing them with our team and players and will try to update this discussion with our results.
I taught the traditional way for over 10 years. For two years I had the "Gun" and we shot 1500 shots per practice and we never improved substantially. I coached an 8th grade girls team one year and none of them could shoot...AT ALL! In desperation i searched for a rapid shooting system and stumbled onto Pro SHot and have stayed with it religiously for 4 years. Between 8th grade girls, boys and JV girls i have not had improvement of less than 25% ever. I was already a proponent of turning 45º based on my law enforcement training in shooting. It is virtually impossible to achieve a one hand one eyes shot with a squared stance. You must turn 45º. Isn't the basketball shot supposed to be a one eyed dominant function. This was a "DUH" moment. As for the release; the index finger. If Pete Marovich's father believed in it (his son still holds all NCAA shooting records & without a 3 point line) I think its again...a "DUH" moment. I always taught the two finger release with the "hand in the cookie jar". Those two fingers aren't even the same length. It just doesn't work aas affectviely. Yes, there are shooters that do it. But i can practice 1000's of shots offer my should and eventual become good. But is that the best OR easiest way to improve. Hell NO. Each year I have had at least one kid who was beyond attrocious. Because they just did what i said and had no bad "old School" habits...the ALL BECAME THE BEST OR TIESD OFR THE BEST 3 POINT SHOOTERS on the team. My JV girls team last year (another horrible team of shooters) had 2 games with 6 threes and one with 8 threes. In that game they came back from a 12 point deficient in 2 minutes to win the game by one. As coaches we cna never be complacent with learning. Coaches are historically the most hard headed bunch of people Ive been around. I guarantee if you try this system; and i mean legitimately try the system...you will be amazed and the improvement of your shooters. PERIOD!!
ReplyDeleteIf you study what the best players in the world r doing now days due to the increase in strength and athletisim and then go out and actually try these techniques you will feel the fluidity and accuracy they r talking about. Instead of talking negatively about something why don't u actually try it out and see if you feel the fluidity and accuracy pro shot is talking about. go back and watch and study the best players in the world shoot. Then go back to the gym and shoot your way vs pro shot and feel for yourself which way is better. U need both the one two step and hop. U need the dip and sometimes u don't. However dipping has a nice fluid transition. Its the turnning as the shot is released that unlocks your shoulders tention and the sweep and sway sets your arch properly. Sometimes u will be squared to the hoop and sometimes u won't but its the turning motion as the ball is released that allows the energy to flow from the floor through your body with no tention in your shoulders. Try it out for yourself first before u argue about it. Watch what all the best smooth fluid shooters r doing and what makes them look so smooth and fluid. I want to be smooth fluid accurate like the best players in the world and pro shots techniques which r in alot of the great shooters in the nba have helped greatly after years of gym time putting in work with all different techniques. Pro shots techniques seems to always rise to the top. I stress to u all go out and put in the work first hand and test it out for yourself. Yes u yourself actually would be the one shooting. But remember in order to really teach and feel the athletic nature want to instill in others u yourself have to be athletic enough in order to feel what the best shooters also feel.
ReplyDeleteBut not cowardly enough to not sign my name Einstein
ReplyDeleteHow to Catch a Baseball like a Pro Basketball Instructional Videos
ReplyDeleteFirst of all how about actual words instead of letters when you write. Second of all, your premise that one would have to be able to shoot a particular way in order to teach it is ridiculous. Would you not go to a cancer doctor because he never had cancer?
ReplyDeleteSoftball training videos from CoachTube where you can learn how to coach softball with online coaching courses instructed by leading softball professionals Softball training videos
ReplyDeleteMr Katz. After reading most of these responses it seem evident that ProShot has helped alot of players. I am a Proshot advocate and teacher of it and I think your issue with the ProShot System is not what it is but how Paul presented it and the way he addresses people. The system works for those who want it to work. Best of luck
ReplyDeleteCoach Katz - Thanks for providing a forum for folks to discuss ideas about shooting. Here I'm aiming to keep it civil while explaining the role of countermovement - aka. "the dip" - in shooting a jump shot. David Black
ReplyDeleteThe dip - a downward motion of the ball & body which begins the sequence of movements in a jump shot - must be countered and reversed with force generated by the shooter's muscles to create the upward motion of body & ball. Skeptics of the dip like to latch on to this seemingly counterintuitive first step... "It wastes time/energy," "unnecessary movement," "slower," are all common complaints.
But the skeptics are missing something - a biomechanical principle known as the Stretch Shortening Cycle. SSC is the lengthening of a muscle (eccentric phase) preceding its contraction (concentric phase). Also called "pre-stretch" or "countermovement," SSC is crucial to the ability to generate power.
SSC has been well described in exercise science literature and would be familiar to most track or strength-conditioning coaches. Check out this explanation from Dr. David Brehm at the School of Human Kinetics & Recreation, Memorial University (CAN) on YouTube - https://youtu.be/s12Cbb4lexA
Once you start looking for it, you'll find SSC everywhere. Crouching slightly when preparing to jump for a rebound. A baseball hitter getting his "hands back" before launching a swing. The slight "forward press" of the hands preceding the backswing in golf. Drawing back the forearm before shooting a dart or throwing a punch. Tossing a frisbee, discus, football or javelin. Walking, running, skipping... really any movement involving acceleration and/or limb movement.
The Stretch Shortening Cycle is the reason basketball players naturally dip when shooting. Their instinctive "pre-stretching" of the muscles involved allows the efficient, coordinated generation of force necessary to launch accurate shots. And the powerful acceleration of the SSC response is why shooters who dip have faster releases than those who don't!
More coaches & instructors are embracing what video analysis reveals about the best male & female shooters, including the vast majority of professional players. Rotational movement (turn) and countermovement (dip) both play an essential role in the jump shot.
Encouraging young players to embrace rather than suppress their intuitive athleticism will not only help them achieve their best performances, it will produce results more quickly and with less frustration.
Good luck!
See also:
Sport Science Collective channel - https://youtu.be/mjTpX3b_atU
Audiopedia - https://youtu.be/DQRwtWN8ClM